Read the whole thing before commenting and/or leaving in a huff, please.
This has come up more than once recently and if you’re one of those people, sorry, but I am seriously mad at you…
I swear, it’s going to be hard to resist putting an IP ban on the next person to compare me to a “Mary Sue” (being insertion of one’s idealized self into some form of popular fiction).
First off, it is hugely insulting. “Mary Sue” is a exclusively a Fan Fiction term, and has 100% NOTHING to do with ORIGINAL work. If someone wanted to write some TMI fan fiction featuring an idealized version of themselves, that would be pulling a “Mary Sue.” And good or bad, I say, “So FREAKING what?” I would LOVE to see it (no promise I’ll like it, but I will be thrilled to see it). Anyone that’s wanted to be Star Fleet Captain Mary Sue, Ralph the Barbarian, Jedi B’ob or otherwise take part in someone’s fictional environment is guilty of nothing but enjoying a work as it should be. It’s not like anyone’s being force to read a Mary Sue tale (and if they are I think that’s something along the lines of kidnapping and/or assault).
Secondly, if I identify with anyone in the strip, it’s probably Gina. Aside from gender, she is everything I wish I was. (And for the record, I have no real-life desire to see what I look like in heels. But I am smashing in a kilt.)
Third, if anyone wants to compare me to Ace, it’s probably not a great stretch, though I’m nowhere near as smart and understanding as he is. When I was young I was fairly good looking and popular with the older ladies (never did get along with girls my own age outside the friend-zone tho). And I truly wish I hadn’t lost touch since I might not be so lonely today.
Fourth, to anyone that hasn’t produced a work of fiction for others to enjoy, either pick up a pen or … uh, don’t say anything. Seriously, I’m open to constructive criticism from experienced peers. And subject to available time, my wisdom (such as it is) is available to anyone that asks.
That said, I’m announcing the first annual Too Much Mary Sue contest. Put yourself into TMI (accurate or idealized is up to you) in your own short story, drawing, or short comic (if you knock out a 24 page comic, don’t waste your time on me, make it your own tale). Just don’t be more of an Ace than Ace and don’t get gross. Prizes (if any) to be announced later (I’m open to ideas). I’ll put it up for a vote by registered users around the end of the month.
Wooo. Somebody got you mad and you made something productive out of it. That’s good.
Ace is pretty idealized. He doesn’t have any serious flaws. That isn’t a bad thing. If the story was about how his flaws interact with his problems to keep him from getting anything good to happen, well there are plenty of stories like that and they’re maybe too much like real life.
I don’t see anything wrong with what you’re doing. I hope as time goes by you will find a way to make a good living from it.
Huh, no character is a Mary Sue in this story-line.
It would be interesting seeing less female characters NOT falling for Ace though, I would especially like a story where he is attracted to her and she is not attracted to him.
Would increase the dynamics.
But Mary Sue?
Nope.
I think you meant either “seeing less female characters falling for Ace” or “seeing more female characters NOT falling for Ace.”
Indeed.
If you are getting really nit-picky, then you mean “seeing *fewer* characters falling for Ace”.
Umm…they are whining about ace being not an accurate human being…you have ghosts spectral cats and demons for Christ’s sake..This comic is not supposed to be accurate to real life. Its for fun. I fully enjoy it and ace has flaws…He can’t say no to anyone and is too polite at times for his own good. At time I just want to slap him and yell grow a backbone dammit. lol But he makes up for it in the end and its an enjoyable read so please Andy… Mary sue away. At least Ace had real redeeming human qualities unlike other Mary sue characters who seem to to stumble around with a 4 leaf clover up their arse because someone has not offed them yet for being useless.
I think the complaint is “Ace is perfect and every woman in existence wants to bone him”. Which, while I enjoy the comic, is honestly a legitimate complaint. It makes him less interesting than he could be.
If Ace wanted all of that attention, yes, I would agree, but he rarely seems to enjoy his magnetism as he runs into stranger and stranger females. It is the fact he is “tortured” by this trait which makes it work.
You know..I can see some view that there MIGHT be some Wish Fulfillment in the story. But, you know what? ANY story has some of that in it. My take(that could be completely wrong) is that Andy’s portrayal of Ace is more of a counter-reaction to the stories where the Good Guy gets all sorts of bad stuff happen to him all the time. What makes me like the story is that Ace is the stereotypical “Nice Guy” and he is NOT being forced the live the life of Job.
Nope, you’d be the ISP guy from the earlier comics. The one ace used to call when Larry clicked on the latest e-mail virus.
“(But I am smashing in a kilt.)”
I would to see you in a kilt. A kilt can make any man sexy. And as for the “Mary Sue” issue, I don’t know if an author can write without injecting a little of himself into his work. Keep doing what you do because I can;t help but check in everyday to see whats next.
It’s on Facebook, actually.
That -is- smashing, Andy.
Me in kilt, not so much. http://kuvat.aniki.fi/albums/chibi11-miika_ojamo-valahdys/Valahdys-09.jpg
You look like a scottish Bond villain, and I mean that in the best possible way
Have to say, kudos to you for standing up to your detractors. People that start screaming that kind of stuff at writers tend to have absolutely no concept of what it takes to create art of this medium. Most, if not all, writers tend to put some of their own personality into their characters, whether main or supporting, of which I am one of those that do so. It allows them to relate to their characters on a deeper level in order to be able to create problems and solutions (if any) for them to face.
Every story needs at least one protagonist. A good story has one or more characters learning from their experiences. A great story makes it entertaining.
I read this comic because it’s an interesting story. I’ve no interest in how much like himself the author/artist has made any of the characters. It’s a moot point anyway, because all characters come from the artist’s personal experience – i.e., from within. Anyone who puts that kind of thing above the story, isn’t really getting the point of anything that they read.
There’s also the matter of you actually appearing in one of the comics early on; you’re already an established character here!
Hardly an idealized version of myself… ^_^ And I needed a quick “throwaway” character at the time.
Actually, for wish fulfillment, I DO wish I was young again AND not so stupid as I was back then.
I don’t think you do this too much. James Patterson on the other hand….
Actually, we know that not every woman in the world want to bone Ace.
- Gina
- Luna
- Rox
And that is a -good- thing. And I agree with whoever was up there saying that it’s nice to see a “good guy” who isn’t constantly swamped with bad stuff up to his eartips. The flood of that sort of wangst managed to sour more than a few modern fantasy authors to me. I don’t want to wallow in other people’s angst, it isn’t good for anyone with leanings towards depression, upbeat stories can be frustrating too, but they are a bit less annoying.
As for Marty Stu-story, I’d need to know a bit more of what Gina’s folks do… But it sounds like the stuff where being in security detail could lead to excitement in both the right and wrong ways.
Don’t forget Pixie. Kira did make a move on Ace, but only when she thought he might have some degree of wealth. And while Rosa did plant a smooch on him, she’d also made her real motivations clear.
Additionally, a woman that isn’t interested in Ace is a non-story, nor would Ace be likely to ever be so smitten by someone uninterested in his company.
Excuses if I sound like the Devil’s Advocate here (though I claim no affiliation to him), but I seem to understand where the detractors are aiming at.
I know personal experience is not the best kind of counsel, but it’s a good way to state an opinion. I’ve done some writing, but I’ve never published, so on that you’re way ahead; you hit twice when you’ve done your story in a visual medium such as a comic (and one done in computer animation, not hand-drawn or semi-hand-drawn; aka done in Wacom tablets and the like). I can tell it’s hard to not insert a bit of yourself in a character (or in characters, plural, as sometimes you might represent fractions of yourself amongst different characters), since it’s best to “write what you know”, and a bit silly to try and make a character that’s a) nothing like what you are, b) a full-fleshed character and not a strawman and c) staying true to the story you wish to tell.
That said, I find that the main reason why Ace is considered a Mary Sue, and not exactly as a “wish-fulfillment character” but rather as an all-encompassing character is because he’s essentially the character upon which the entire story gravitates, to the point that entities beyond the mortal world not only know of him, but deal with him on a constant basis (first Cleo and Spooky who did so indirectly, then Mami Wata, then Shinobi and finally Inspector Mercy), who seem to only exist to address him and get somewhat marveled at his own existence.
This is a careful thread to follow, if only because that might be the entire purpose of the story. It’s not really wish fulfillment, but being the main character, Ace HAS to deal with everybody around, and the story WILL gravitate towards him. It’s a story about Ace. The fact that he went bald and gained some pounds at one moment and is currently recovering from it, though, lends to the credence that you’re attempting to live a life through through Ace, as an idealized version of yourself in a world that’s quite distinct from our own (in many ways than one, to be precise). There’s also the fact that he’s taken a personal vow of non-marriage but women gravitate towards him, essentially fulfilling his sexual desires more than one way (and he seems to be also good at bed).
Yet, that’d require forgetting some stuff that’s also relevant: had Ace never left his home, what would have changed? I have a strong impression that several things would have happened just like they happened, with little changes; perhaps Maddie wouldn’t have been a main character, but definitely Rocky and Carly would have been a couple (their character development in terms of their budding relationship was treated separately from Ace’s own existence, so that makes me believe they were destined for each other), and perhaps other stuff such as Jaz’ loss of limb and the death of Ace’s father and many other things. Removing Ace from the equation reveals developments of other main characters that could have existed regardless of Ace’s very existence, an important point to consider if anyone’s decrying the comic as a wish-fulfillment one rather than a story to tell.
There’s also the case of Luna, whose skills are even harder to explain than those of Ace. Sometimes, I’ve tried to understand where does she get all the info to make the decisions and remarks she makes, and some end up as asspulls, no less and no more (sorry for using that word, but it’s the punch behind the word what I wished to emphasize). To wit: there’s a character, who, while being the main character’s (and therefore, the “wish-fulfillment character’s”) sister, often seems to steal the protagonism right from under his nose.
Another big qualm that could lead to the thought of Ace == Marty Stu would be the apparent lack of flaws as a tool to develop the character. I place the word “apparent” because his positive traits tend to overshadow his flaws, so it’s hard to pin down what are they. He not only has a stable job but a sizable income of money and several women surrounding him, but also supernatural entities almost forced to deal with him, and he’s just such a nice fellow altogether, plus his supernatural resilience to capsaicin (which isn’t a Marty Stu trait on its own, as there’s another webcomic character who has a superhuman resistance to it despite having her powers provided by an external source, just to mention the example as ad-free as possible). I’d have to make another archive binge to recognize his flaws, aside from being a camper (or stealing the Quad-Rune; oh, he has a mother who’s a professed geek and a battle-hardened veteran, who just happens to raise him single-handedly, so he has an unusual background too, though I have my respects for Gina as I know what’s living with a strong single mother).
I could see some changes for the better, but the story doesn’t has to change so drastically in order to accommodate the critique of detractors. I can’t recall exactly where I saw this, but I’ve always heard that flaws build character, and indeed: flaws are tools if used correctly. The best example of a character-building flaw would be Jaz, because she was already quite independent, but the way she coped with the loss of a limb and how eventually she recovered is something rarely seen in various stories. Another great way to build the story would be to further develop the cast as independent on their own merits (much like what happened between Rocky and Carly, or Cleo and Spooky now turned into syrens), and perhaps introduce characters that serve as authentic foils to the main characters, able to exist on their own, and whose interactions with the main characters serve to build each other. The example given above (by Klas, specifically) is a great example of a foil that can exist on her own and that builds character (Ace is, or was, rather timid around women, so this may serve as a great way to let him handle someone who he may seem interested into, but doesn’t reciprocate the interest; it also helps build up the other characters in that regard).
The comment about Ace’s flaws (being unable to refuse anyone’s requests and his overall politeness) might not be seen as flaws to everybody. This is a question of perception, the main reason why there’s no clear definition of what’s a Mary Sue, other than something that bugs you for reasons both valid and invalid. I, for example, doesn’t perceive excessive politeness as a flaw, considering that there’s a culture represented in the comic (the Japanese culture) who has this trait as a cultural one. Note the difference between “trait” and “flaw”: excessive politeness may seem like a positive trait to some (probably those who are also very polite and see nothing wrong in it), some see it as a flaw, and some see it as an obnoxious trait. The same goes with his apparent inability to refuse requests; it may be obnoxious to some, but positive to others. IMO, I don’t seem to see character-building flaws that provide interesting interactions, something which Ace could develop. It doesn’t has to be a sudden change, but perhaps a hidden depth to his personality.
Ace as the “Good Guy that gets everything right”…well, I don’t see how people might see that as an argument against the comic. The comic is great BECAUSE it’s a feel-good comic, which handles its bits of drama with comedy. It’s a sitcom, but uses no black comedy for humor. It’s not intended for cynics, though I could see how a cynic could enjoy the comic (namely, by nagging all about how the story develops, which while seemingly perverse, nonetheless causes the individual to distract from its own problems, perceived, real or otherwise), and it’s not intended to be serious (though, again, there are moments of seriousness; I refer once again to Jaz).
The best way I can put it is: there’s these traits around Ace that cause this nagging feeling of “this guy is too good to be true”, which might not be what people are looking for, and might be the main weapon against the comic. Taking it as a whole entity, going beyond the main character and exploring the supporting cast, you can see a lot of interesting characters with fully-fleshed stories which are meant to be taken as larger-than-life, and which balance the overall gravity of the main character. Those who detract for no purpose other than bugging the author probably haven’t seen the comic in its entirety in order to appreciate it, or perhaps have read it entirely and found it wanting; there’s several reasons why it might happen. Here’s one I’d like people to consider: perhaps there’s people who see the finer points of the comic, but feel there are other points which serve as distracting the finer ones and thus request the author to get rid of. That can be as every bit constructive as those done by experienced writers or fans: in fact, some might want to become fans and simply can’t stomach some things. Sure, there’ll be douchebags who find entertaining to bash people, but those can be easily rejected. However, just because a review can be scathing, doesn’t mean it can’t be a source from which you can improve the story you write, particularly since, by considering those claims, you might just be opening your story to a larger audience. But then again, that might be just me.
Andy, sometimes when I read your blog posts, I find that you take things a wee bit too seriously. There’s at least one other webcomic author whose name I won’t speak of for purposes of keeping this ad-free that has the same deal. Both of you are excessively polite in how they deal their detractors, though you handle problems a bit differently. But sometimes, you just have to let things go: it’s great to defuse sometimes with “at times I’d just wish to pull the switch on their Internet forever!” and also great to goad them into releasing their anger in creative ways (as in, Too Much Mary Sue/Marty Stu contest), but protesting against a lot of things will end up having people peg you as a whiner, which is one of the many ways trolls feed (aside from flames, something antithetical to their roots, at least speaking in D&D terms).
Again, excuses if I sound harsh, or if this was just way too long. I find writing this a piece of cake, and a reason why I can’t have Twitter.
There is one thing that gets me when people point at Ace as being so perfect.
Flip everyone’s gender.
Ace becomes a weak willed woman that in spite of her intelligence and attempts to stay a virgin would be quickly billed as easy.
Gina is now the frequently absent father that constantly leaves his daughter in a dangerous situation. And when crossed kicks her out into a cruel world (as opposed to using an excuse to push Ace out of the nest when he’s showing signs of arrested development).
Jaz becomes a creepy letch.
Luna is now a know-it-all that is coldly unaffected at being orphaned.
Larry is a woman in a bad marriage. Verbally abused at the very least.
Spooky would be scary.
And Cleo, sheer evil.
Maddie is a playboy wimp that can’t stand up to his scheming grandfather.
Frankly, I wouldn’t read trash like that…
You know, that is one thing I definitely have to say: of all the things in the story, the only thing that has bugged me is Luna’s lack of much reaction at being orphaned. I keep expecting her to finally have the emotional breakdown that she has been suppressing for a while now. in fact, I kind of wonder who she will
finally breakdown in front of: Kimi or Jaz.
You mean Shinobi isn’t your Mary Sue? Rats, got that one wrong then
Seriously though, all stories contain idealised fictional characters. Since they come out of an authors mind, they have to reflect some portion of that author’s personality and memories of others – after all what else has the author got to work with as raw material? That’s true whether you’re talking about Shakespear, JK Rowling or whoever!
My definition of a Mary Sue is a bit more specific. Insertion of a non-canon character (usually a self-insert) who is able to resolve, fix, and upstage the protagonist(s) on a constant basis. A perfect example would be if you had Mr. Potter, Wizard and Problem-Solver Extrordinaire join the cast. Which I am fairly solid you would NEVER do (except maybe as a one-off/gag).
Ace is not a Marty Stu. Lucky, yes. Observant, smart, attractive, yes. Perfect? Nah. Besides, if he was, Shinobi would not need to have rescued him.
Keep up the good work. I may not be a very vocal member of your readership, but I AM a loyal one. I look forward to the twists and turns fate throws your characters. Don’t let a bunch of trolls (and if they aren’t writers, doubly so) make you think anyone but you knows what’s right for your story.
Well… I’m trying to do a Mary-Sue short story, and darned if I’m not having a heck of a time remembering who uses what pronouns for Carly and Rocky… help a sister out? I know there was a comic out there not TERRIBLY buried (though could have been a year or two ago) that expressly stated only one person got away with calling a certain person using certain pronouns, but I can’t recall which is which.
Ladies and gentlemen, things I care about.
But anyway, can you assist with either a link or just an answer?
Does Ace need more flaws? Maybe not.
Robert Heinlein broke down all the possible story types into three classes: “boy meets girl”, “the man who learned better”, and “the little tailor” (i.e. someone forced to deal with a change in life circumstances). I would add a fourth one: “cop show”.
What makes a “cop show” is a situation that is interesting in its own right; if this is done correctly, the characters might not even matter. A classic cop show is “Dragnet”. Does Sergeant Joe Friday need more flaws? He doesn’t, because the stories really aren’t about him. He’s the cop on the scene, dealing with stuff, but what’s interesting is the stuff, and to some extent how he deals with it.
The classic “police procedurals” are stories where you watch the cops piecing together the clues. You watch them dusting for prints, checking fibres found at the scene, interviewing witnesses… and as with Sergeant Joe Friday, the police characters might not be flawed characters who grow and change; the story revolves around what they do, not who they are.
Classic science fiction stories often tend to be cop shows. The characters may be little more than archetypes (the Scientist, the Military Officer, the Journalist, the Secretary, etc.) but if the situations they get into are interesting enough, that’s all you need.
As another example, I love (and very much recommend) the Retief stories by Keith Laumer. The main character, Jame Retief, is almost completely without flaw. He is handsome, women go for him, he is competent in hand to hand fighting, he is competent in fighting with weapons, he is competent with guns of all sorts. He is never wrong, and he is constantly saving situations that should be disasters. Yet the Retief stories are lively and fun. First of all, Keith Laumer did a great job of dreaming up colorful situations; second, it’s fun to see a hopeless situation get untangled. And with a Retief story you know the bad guys will be stopped and the good guys saved. It’s not mind-expanding but it’s *fun*.
Ace has more flaws than Retief. (Retief would never have flushed himself out of the secret basement… and you have that running gag where Ace keeps ending up in the hospital, while Retief was generally unscathed by his adventures. And Retief is never in doubt, while Ace is often uncertain.)
To wrap this up, let me just say that Too Much Information is one of my favorite comics, and that is because I enjoy the stories so much. That, to me, is *not* a sign that you need to overhaul your characters and do things differently. Keep on doing what you have been doing; it’s working for you and I like it.
P.S. Baen Books has an omnibus with many of the best Retief stories. And you can read it for free! Link: http://www.baenebooks.com/p-347-retief.aspx
Reteif is an old favorite of mine and I think Ace does channel him some in spirit if not in practice. And let’s not forget the Bolo series. You always know that while a Bolo might lose, it will never fail.
I’ve also known of (and admired) the Baen free library. When other publishers where just learning about (and panicking over) The Internet, Baen Books found that their free library increased sales. Something penny pinching bean counters will never understand.
And Gamblers world is free for Kindle!
There’s also a $1.99 version that contains additional stories. And I’ve never begrudged Baen my money. (Especially when several of their hardbacks frequently include a CD for the whole series.)
(And, yes, clicking those links would get me a little coin if you buy something.)
how about the john ringo Ghost series? or patricia briggs alpha and omega and mercy thompson series and john mcollough raven series? i found those to be goo stories with decent character development both from the main and side characters view
I may have pointed this out before, but half the fun of writing this is using Ace’s good points to get him in to trouble.
And yes, I’d take on troubles such as his in a heartbeat.
I had to wiki the term to make sure what it was. I’d seen it before but didn’t pay much attention.
If {considered and discarded several descriptive terms here, finally settled on…} twits want to compare you to a “Mary Sue” writer – then they really aren’t paying attention. Nor did they bother to really find out what the term meant!
“Wish fulfillment?” Do they think you really want to nearly die from smoke inhalation, fall off a roof, get sucked into another dimension after nearly drowning, end up in the hospital MULTIPLE times, etc. etc. etc.?
How’s that phrase go….? “Haters gonna hate.” They’ve cherry-picked aspects of the storyline and narrowed their entire response to those. I’m going to have to assume they thing you identify mostly with Ace, not Gina, given your response to them. So…yep – Ace is well thought of by the ladies – MOST of the ladies. He really only fails when the gap is too wide, either by age, gender preference or direct relationship. Yes, Ace is comfortable financially – though that came at some cost. Yes, Ace gets along with nearly everyone. Oh, wait – there’s Steve. And Rox’s brief date. And Agent Mercy. Some others, probably. And so on.
Personally, I think Ace is pretty complex, though we see only bits of it. But he’s surprised me a time or two.
LUNA might qualify as a Mary Sue type character, though somehow I can’t see you, the author, identifying with her. But she’s undeniably the youngest, smartest cast member, who’s proved to be extremely clever when cornered. But I remember her “ouch” and smile that she’s not perfect.
I like what you do.
Is Ace a Marty Sue? No.
Does he share some aspects of a Marty Sue? Yes.
But honestly, so do most primary protagonists in any story. We as a people do not like to read stories about the beaten down receptionist of a third rate insurance flop who doesn’t have the gumption left to look the next person that comes into the office in the eye.
However, that setup becomes “cool” when the receptionist in under cover to catch the “insurance flop” in fraud that is affecting millions of people in the area after Hurricane Sandy flooded them out.
We, as a people, want to see people who can stand up and be greater than life, because stories are “let’s make believe.” Stories are what we want to live up to. And the stories that people love to watch, not always the stories that critics like, but the ones that are POPULAR, always have people that we want to look up to.
LOTR is not a story about hobbit farmers. It is a story about FOUR hobbits who did something that no other hobbits ever wanted to do. They traveled far from The Shire, through dank dungeons, haunted swamps, ancient forests, dark lands, and more. They saw Elven lands of beauty, human lands of honor and strength, and they saw the extent that those lands had fallen from their might of old. They wielded a ring of great power, they became knights of Gondor and Rohan, they slayed ring wraiths and orcs, and threw down the great evil Sauron.
If you write a popular story that lots and lots of people like, you probably have somebody in there that has some of the traits of a Mary/Marty Sue. That is simply the way of things.
” if anyone wants to compare me to Ace, it’s probably not a great stretch, though I’m nowhere near as smart and understanding as he is.”
Aw, don’t sell yourself short, Andy…If Ace comes across as being smart in the comic, that’s your doing & requires *some* intelligence of your own at the very least.
This comic has always felt to me like a subversion of anime harem comedies.
I’m the first one to admit that it is heavily influenced by Tenchi Moyu.
The best thing about the FanFiction is it gives a lot of people with a lot of different levels of talent the ability to test their weird ideas on a large audience, the worst thing is the sheer amount of crap generated (Sturgeon was so optimistic because the cost of publication was far higher for him, in 2013 he’d be reaching for extra decimal places.) and the encouragement of a flame culture.
Two observations: the brilliant FF writer ‘Less Wrong’ states the First Law as: “You can’t make Frodo a Jedi without giving Sauron the Death Star”. BY that standard Ace hardly gets a free ride, his butt is constantly being busted both figuratively and literally. Luna has built tough walls to deal with the horror of her mother’s stupidity, greed and sheer evil. All of these characters are wounded in one way or another, ‘cept maybe the bike shop owners and the kittens.
The other is what Lois McMaster Bujold calls the song of the Unsung Collaborator. If we didn’t care about your product and your process enough to write and express (even stupid) opinions you would really not be doing your job.
Pass the Habenero licorice. – ICWT
Just keep on writing, Andy O! Ace’s adventures, not to mention those of Maddy and her monster and whatever I found in the Bit Bucket have lightened my hard times and added an extra bit to my good ones for this many years now. It probably means something bad about my personality, but fwiw, I’m living proof that lack of posted comments does not indicate of lack of benefit to the reader.
I’m not going to say a word about internet opinion drones, but for fun you might like to look up the PPC, the Protectors of the Plot Continuum. I don’t think the little idiots who have been making those Mary Sue comments comprehend just how bad Mary Sues which are worthy of smackdown actually are.